Any one who stood on the street across from Minnedosa United Church's 105 year old Sanctuary on February 12th 2006, will not soon forget the image of a much loved building consumed by flame ...It was a deliberate act of arson. The three perpetrators were caught, tried, convicted, sentenced and are now incarcerated.
In the months since, I have heard many emotions expressed by the people of Minnedosa. There has been sorrow, anger, frustration, anger, and profound sadness. I have heard many things said about the fire and about the three who took a much loved friend from us. But at no point have I EVER heard anyone express hatred of those deeply troubled individuals. I HAVE however, heard many voices say - "I hope they get the help they need ..." and other expressions of care amid the pain and sorrow. But I've never heard anything about hating them.
So, it is personally disturbing to me, as the minister of a community that was victimized by an act of arson, to find that my blog has been linked to, but a website entitled "God Hates Goths". When I first found the link I didn't really think about it ... but now as the hits from that site are mounting, I have to pause and consider the implications of that web site, and its link to mine ...
God Doesn't HATE Goths. The God I believe in hates NO ONE !!! God's love is unconditional and limitless. God, the God of the Church that on Febuary 12th 2006 burned to the ground, is not a God of hate, but a God of love. God doesn't hate those three young people who foolishly thought it would be a good idea to torch our building, nor should we. And anyone who claims to be a follower of that God should never utter the word HATE.
As Martin Luther King said - "hate is too big a burden to bear ..."
OUR God is not a God of HATE, but the intolerance expressed on the web site that has linked here is as equally repugnant to me as the act of arson that claimed our building. Neither expresses any care or concern or love for another. Both are vicious and ugly actions.
The very statement - "God Hate Goths" embraces and underscores the legitimate grievances that Goths, and others have with organized religion. I personally share many of their concerns and grievances. I think they often have a point: Christianity and its reliance on a Gospel of Dominion and Triumphalism, has wreaked havoc within the human family, all in the name of God.
The Inquisition, Witch Trials, forced conversions, residential schools, slavery, oppression of women ... the list is long when we inventory the sins of the Church. But all of them are actions of self-righteousness, judgement, hurt and destruction. All of them are things that are anathema to a loving God and a loving people of faith.
God hates Goth - I think not.
I think God hates the kind of attitude that allows God's Children to make such hurtful, erroneous and offensive comments that imply God hates anyone. I think God loves Goths, because in the majority of cases they have simply found religion lacking. God may not love their actions, but then many Christians are lacking too. God's love is boundless and limitless and unconditional - the limits are human constructs.
God doesn't hate Goths, but perhaps God hates people who do ...
I for one, can not, and will never condone the actions of those fringe folks who think burning a church is a good idea (it's NOT), but I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with them and talk about their concerns about organized religion, and I KNOW many of them would be surprised to learn that many of us within the Church share their concerns and their views, and we too reject the history of the Church as an anathema to God. Their goal and ours is to build a better world. And that world will never come into being when words like Hate are tossed around.
God doesn't hate Goths ... but I'm pretty sure God doesn't like those who spew words of HATE in God's own name ... They are mis-representing God, and our faith ...
20 comments:
So, in no way am i a Christian. I believe in God, but the buck stops there. I've listened to metal and its many subgenres (death metal, black metal, sludge, grindcore, doom, industrial, crust, bla bla bla) for years now. I have, shockingly, never committed an act of violence against a group of people of faith, or anyone for that matter. im a rather peaceful person (peace activist, actually).
in any case, a friend of mine gave me a link to this website and introduced it to me as 'from the people who brought us Godhatesfags . . . Godhatesgoths!' which, of course, made me crack up on the spot, and led me to have to check out this site. this is some of the stuff we do when were bored. as we occasionlly find fundamentalists just as much a joke as they find us, its rather entertaining.
after skimming around and reading about all the 'atrocities' thatve so graciously been attributed to rather troubled people who happen to listen to dark music, i clicked the provided link to this site. its hard for me to support something like arson of a place of worship, because i sure as hell (no pun intended) wouldnt want someone to burn down my local venue.
after reading the dated article, i clicked the link of the more recent artile, whch was coincidentally today. the smile of my face has yet to leave
thankyou so much for being as understanding and open minded as you are. this means quite a bit to me to finally have religion somewhat defending the troubled people who take blame on behalf on the music i love. its a misrepresentation, at the least, of how caring some of the people in the underground community can be.
im not asking to be converted, im not asking to convert any of you. i just wanted to say thanks.
peace
- Travis Slumber ((90YW/oS))
I appreciate your thoughtful words very much It is good to hear a Christian say such things about God and the love of God. I think what happened to your church was just dead wrong and I am sad for you and your church members. I hope you continue to heal from this act of violence.
If I may I need to say though that I am sad to hear that these youth were put in prison for this crime. I have researched youth violence and have worked with troubled kids for years at a commmunity centre and know that incarcerating them generally only makes them better criminals who go on to commit more and more crimes. Since they are youth-I would have hoped to hear some creative way that would have been propsed to help them work through and out the rage that caused them to do such a horrid thing. Let me stress again it is not ok that they burnt down a church but after reading your excellent blog entry I thought that your statement about them being in jail and GOd's love were incongruent. Yes we need to be held accountable for our cruel actions but putting youth in jail is not I believe and I know to be helpful for their healing or their victims healing.
In some ways I can understand why the people who created the website that links to this blog entry would be driven to make such a website...Goths are scary people on sight, and if you don't bother to get to know them better, the first impression you have can have a lasting impact on how you see other people who look that way for the rest of your life.
That being said, I must say some other words. I am 15 years old. I am not a Goth, but I have a cousin who is. She is 21 years old, and she is one of the NICEST people you could ever meet. Yes, at first sight she looks to be a frightening Satanist who looks like she sacrifices babies in her spare time, but she doesn't. Instead, she works at a clothing store she owns, and she goes to school. Yes, she participates in some activities that I don't think I'd consider being active in, but that doesn't mean I don't love her. I DO believe in God, but I don't follow Christianity. The burning of your church certainly is something to be concerned about, but I agree with Karin Rios that the perpetrators should not have been put in prison. Mr. Taylor was right when he said that Christians have a horrible history...my mom is a mental health therapist and she says she deals with many Aboriginal clients who have been horribly traumatized by the things the priests have done to them in the name of God. As you said, God most likely hates the people that say God hates a certain kind of people. Thank you for bringing attention to a crucial issue that most people are not aware of. Peace be with you.
I came across godhatesgoths.com, I think it may be a joke. Even so, people are pretty unaccepting overall when it comes to goths. I consider myself goth, I was forced to go to church when I was younger but I am not a Christian, although I know enough about it to know that that site is made up of false information about Christianity. It's sad that extreme Christians give ALL Christians a bad name. Most of my friends who are goths hate Christians for the sole fact that the ones they have met are so unaccepting and judgemental. I think it's awesome that you have posted up this article. So true!
well done, you are a fantastic person, and a shinging beacon of hope for religion, i am a part of the gothic subculture, and have been given hastle by religous groups myself (even though i live in england a more tolarent country) i am very sorry to hear about the burning of your church. i have to say that god hates goths is an ignorant site, i happen to wear all sorts of vibrant coulourse nd listen to dance music, as im a cyber goth. i would really like to get in touch with u since u seem a fantastic person who is tolarant and respectful to others. i wish to raise some things to your attention. yes a lot of goths are dissatisfied with the church, i hav catholic parents and have moved on from the church simply because i dislike how it limits my thoughs, as a transvestite, a bi-sexual, and a friend of many homosexuals and transgender people, i frankly find catholic teachings non compatible with my life style, but your blog struck a cord in me, it reminds me of my parents, you see beyond the art of the goth image and see the person who is creative, and intelligent, and not a monster. also one last thing, you may not be aware of, there have been murders of goths in england, and i think youd agree with me the deaths of these people put this god hats goths sight even more into the innapropriate region in which it dwells.
may you have peace and happyness in your life style.
(ps. i have a myspace account you may visit, my user name is nurse medusa, simply search under display names nd i will appear, or you may email me at carnegiebear@hotmail.co.uk, i look forward to hearing from you :)
I LOVE you!
I consider myself a devout Catholic; I mean, obviously, I'm not perfect. But I DO make a point of going to church and youth group every week and pay attention and try to apply what I learn to my life. I help run LOVE you!
I the middle school youth group as well, and I study the Bible and other Christian books often and intently. I do my best to keep a good prayer life.
I also have a dark aesthetic lifestyle and way of thinking. I love art, and I listen to many types of music-- Goth and heavy metal make up a large portion of my musical taste. I dress Goth, and I stick to the Goth sets of beliefs (these don't, in any way, clash with my Christian beliefs).
I've been told to my face that my Goth lifestyle is one giant sin. I laughed. I believe that God made me this way, and I don't see how being Goth can make me anti-God. There are plenty of Goths who are "God people" and plenty who aren't. There are also plenty of non-Goths who are and aren't followers of God. Besides, what you said is true; God loves EVERYONE.
It's big to see a preacher reinforcing this fact when so many people refuse to accept it. Thank you. :)
I am a christian and a goth... well sorta... and came across godhatesgoths.com. At first I was OUTRAGED that anyone who claims to be a christian... to know the one living God... could possibly imagine that he could hate anyone!!! Then I came across the link to godhateswomen and godhatesretards and some others and realized that these are all lies straight from satan himself! Thank you so much for having this website because I can only imagine how many souls must have been turned away from God by those awful lies.... also the godhateschildren was enough to make any parent...who didnt realize or know what a lie that was... to keep their children away from god forever! It just makes me so sad when I see the way satan works and how sneaky he can be!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you so much pastor...
God Bless
My dear brother in christ you don't know how happy I am to know of someone, that doesn't preach hatred about goths. on behalf of the gothic orthadox church of christ, thank you.
i am a goth and im really surprised and glad to see that some christians do not hate goths. its really amazing and well, surprising becuse of all the bad press that we have been getting recently especially from a site called godhatesgoths.their information is sadly misguided and the REV RG GREEN needs to stop being so blind and do some research because if he doesnt watch himself some "goth" will get so angry and have had enough and then go mental and hurt someone. that woukld be unfortunate because it is not our way really and we dont really jhate everyone. that would be really unfortunate. i hope he sees his mistake and stops before it is too late. respect to you and all the people who believe what believe, the gothic princess
Hi, I too live on the prairie. Glad to see your blog. I have been going to our Methodist church, here, in our little town in New Mexico and wanted to comment on your goth section. I have been depressed since age 11 (I am now 47) and naturally turn to the darker colors in life. So, I feel that Goth is for those who are depressed inside. What do you think? I call myself Prairie Goth.
I know this comment is late compared to the others... But I just recently discovered GOD HATES GOTHS.
It saddened me almost instantly. For hours I prayed this man would be forgiven for his hatred. I fear that he will be scolded, rather than the teenagers who dress in black...
I am 16, yet I have experienced this ridicule all my life. I fell into the gothic lifestyle at the young age of 9, never left it. However, I am also a baptized Mormon. This raised even more havoc, since the word Mormon is all too often mislabeled as a bad religion. I have heard comments saying I don't believe in God to I must be a whore because my religion allows polygamy, which it DOES NOT.
I do not focus my entire life on spirituality, but I am indeed spiritual. God isn't the cruel being the owner of GODHATESGOTHS describes... God has loved all of his children, even me, though I have strayed away so many times...
It's just hard hearing adults say such close-minded and horrible things... He reminds me of the schizophrenics you hear about on television, justifying murder with their claims that the Lord told them to do so...
Thank you for having a warm and loving heart, the heart a man of God SHOULD have...
<3 Nadia LaSalle
You know, it's people like this Rev RG Green that give Christians a bad name. It is people like Rev RG Green that are part of the reason for so many youth are straying for the church these days. It's people like him that give God a bad name.
One of my gothic friends told me about the website one day, and the instant I opened up the first page, I couldn't stop shaking. I couldn't believe that somebody who calls himself a Man of God could say hurtful things to these people and to take scripture and use it for evil, and who takes the name of the LOVING God and turns it into HATE! It sickens me!
It's people like You, however, that give Christians a GOOD name. You've shared with the world that god loves everybody no matter who they are. God does not care about the way anybody looks or dresses unlike humans who base everything based on outwardly appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). People like Rev RG Green need to get their facts straight, and realize that God loves the whole world of people!
I thank you so much for your encouraging words and hope that others that have become victims to this godhatesgoths.com website will find your website/blog and will read and realize the truth.
Thank you.
Your brother in Christ,
-Wesley-
Hey! I found myself feeling very uplifted when reading the above article. I am an athiest, but I in no way hate peacefull Christians, or any other religion for that matter. I am so used to recieving words of hate from Christians! At school, I am sometimes frightened to tell people that I am a non-believer, because I know that I will quite possibly be made fun of or yelled at. It's really nice to see that all religions and non-believers (because Atheism is NOT a religion) can get along and accept our differences, knowing that what matters is what is inside.
-Kelsey, 14-
its good someone is speeking out against the "god hates goths" website. whoever wrote it seems to have no respect for anyone throughout the whole article and i felt exstremely sick when i read the website. reading this article has made me feel a whole lot better
Thank you for writing what you did. its good to know someone out there is accepting towards goths. i consider myself goth even though, no, i do not wear black all the time. not all goths do-contrary to popular belief-just as not all goths are depressed. often they just look at things differently than most people. as for the belief that all goths are atheists ( im not even quite sure what that means :I ) i was raised christian, mant goths are christians are goths, or vis-versa, as well as other religions. however, sites like GODHATESGOTHS just turn more people away from the lord. i was. at an early age i was a very strong believer in christ. later, after seeing how mant of faith rejected lifestyles such as mine and my friends, i began to lose faith in god. so i think your site is very good for those who believe they will only face rejection from god and chruch. thank you and keep writing! :)
Thanks soooooooo much people keep saying god hate goths and I'am a goth and I don't belive it true at all. It just makes me sooooooooo mad
I truly admire the positive, and certainly Scriptural perspectives in admonishing those that "preach hatred." There is absolutely no place in the Kingdom of Heaven for such as those that venomously accuse and stir up strife. HOWEVER . . .
I've read through most of the comments and am remiss to find that no one has seriously addressed one thing blatantly obvious - the parallels between bondage to occult music, and the acts of violence. It must be said that although Christ loves everyone unconditionally, there is separation from God that is perpetrated by the "unseen" principalities and persuasions of demonic activity. Our struggle is indeed not against flesh and blood - we are not to be "Goth Haters" - but we are Spiritually obligated to oppose those tendencies that lead to that separation from God. Scriptures clearly tell us that those who practice and participate in such occult rituals - even if "just the music" - will be "left to their own devises." First the music, then the dress and make-up, . . . well then the acts of sexual immorality and/or violence. This is a Spiritual principle, and no man who practices anything of the occult is immune from becoming enslaved to that practice. We as Christians have repeatedly been admonished throughout the Scripture. There is nothing at all innocent about "experimenting" with the Gothic sub-culture. Yet those who condemn the practitioners are not being Christ-like by failing to exhort one another in LOVE. Now, let us take seriously the principle that occult practices IS avenue for demonic oppression; and we are obligated to exhort one another - strictly and with the Word.
I'm overwhelmed with joy that this was posted. I'm a Goth but I'm also a Christian. I saw the website that said that god hated Goths and instantaneously my stomach sank. It scared me. The part that killed me the most was "Every time a Goth dies, God laughs at their pain". As soon as I read about it I looked up if god hated Goths and found this. I believe this is much more convincing. I feel guilty for ever having doubted God. but I was genuinely afraid... Thank you for posting this. I have my reassurance and your acceptance of the Gothic sub-culture is dearly appreciated.
I do consider myself goth as well as catholic. Thank God for people like you, who understand that god is a force of love, not hate and that those who preach hate in his name only make the faithful look bad. Admittedly, I can be a bit violent at times (being a gamer, a goth, and asexual means that I'm an easy person to hate, and the large amounts of bullying at an early age have caused me to be a little to quick to cure intolerance with a knee to the crotch)and I do not go to church as much as i ought to (the intolerant fools sorta do a good job in scaring people away). Honestly, internet being what it is, these people are one of three things.
1) Hateful fools who I desperately hope god will cure.
2) Forum trolls being offensive, in need of psychiatric help to deal with underlying emotional conditions.
3) Intelligent people making a stealth parody of the above two and just did too good of a job. (yes these sorts of things are way more common than people realize)
ps, the odd name comes from a WoW alt
I do not consider myself emo but many if fellow students call me emo. I am a strong Christian. I feel that when many people who claim Christianity don't reach out to the other gothic and emo kids they are not dong there duty to share the love of God. Infact most "Suburban Gangsters" and "normal kids" make fun of me for not listening to Eminem or Lil Wayne. These kids normally cka Christianity. I try to explain that I don't worship Satan, cut myself, or any of that stuff. I just don't like dressing Un neon colors and listening to Hip-Hop. I'm glad that a minister (other than my dad) thinks I'm just going to hell. And GOD BLESS YOU REV.
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